CONTACTS 
0201 - Primavera Systems, Inc.                                                                                                                                            O-00000094 0101
020101 - Mr. Joel M. Koppleman; President
0202 - Kelar Corporation                                                                                                                                                  O-00000213 0201
020201 - Ms. Shirin Oshidari; Primavera Product Manager

SUBJECTS
PMI Monthly meetings
Developing Leads, PMI

0504 -
0504 -    ..
0505 - Summary/Objective
0506 -
050601 - Follow up ref SDS 19 0000.
050602 -
050603 - The program was supportive of SDS objectives and the need for
050604 - communication metrics.  Got a number of leads for joint marketing and
050605 - new assignments.  PMI needs help to develop the Asilomar Conference
050606 - this year.
050607 -
050608 -    Assigned this record to management productivity and executive
050609 -    challenge because the feature speaker is CEO of a major software
050610 -    developer who recounts significant management difficulties despite
050611 -    using one of the best control programs available and having the
050612 -    highest level of expertise possible to apply it.  The solution for
050613 -    better management to outwit the nefarious Murphy's Law of inexplic-
050614 -    able mistakes, must, therefore, be elsewhere.
050615 -
050617 -  ..
0507 -
0508 -
0509 - Progress
0510 -
051001 - Visited with:
051003 -          ..
051004 -      •  Met Jake McMichael briefly.  He brought a woman colleague from
051005 -         Sandia to the meeting.
051006 -
051007 -             I mentioned the call from Mike Birnbaum about the meeting
051008 -             on Friday for funding a research project on SDS, ref SDS
051009 -             23 line 60.  Jake said he will attend this meeting.  He
051010 -             noted to his colleague that Sandia has been unable to
051011 -             budget using SDS.  I cited the advantage of sponsoring a
051012 -             research project to create more evidence that, like at
051013 -             PG&E, SDS increases income more than cost.  Telephones,
051014 -             desks, filing cabinets, accountants, engineers, salesmen,
051015 -             all cost money, but they are essential in a modern age.
051016 -             SDS is essential in the emerging age of the Information
051017 -             Highway. Sandia can test this on themselves.  It is not
051018 -             clear how strongly Jake will advocate SDS as a good
051019 -             candidate for a research project to improve management
051020 -             productivity.
051021 -                  ..
051022 -                  This evening's program by Joel Koppleman adds
051023 -                  weight to the need for Communication Metrics.
051024 -
051026 -          ..
051027 -      •  Dan Ono re project to evaluate communication metrics, ref SDS
051028 -         20 line 50.
051029 -
051030 -             Did not see Dan this evening.
051031 -
051033 -          ..
051034 -      •  Sherrill McDonald re same thing, ref SDS 19 line 113.
051035 -
051036 -             Said hello to Sherrill, but did not have an occasion to
051037 -             talk to him.  He did say he got my survey form, ref SDS 19
051038 -             line 117.
051039 -                  ..
051040 -                  I met Joan (pronounced Jzohn), a woman who is
051041 -                  the personnel director at Kaiser.
051043 -                   ..
051044 -                  She sat next to me at dinner and said Kaiser and
051045 -                  another design firm have recently won joint award of
051046 -                  a $3.5B environmental clean-up project.
051047 -
051049 -              ..
051050 -             Asilomar Conference Problem
051051 -
051052 -             Bill DeHart said Tom Markey has withdrawn from his
051053 -             assignment to manage the Asilomar conference because of
051054 -             difficulty getting a feature speaker.
051055 -
051056 -             He and Stan Watson (with PG&E) plan to consider taking up
051057 -             the charge.  We considered the idea of doing a follow up
051058 -             to the Murphy's Law subject from the presentation last
051059 -             year, by offering communication metrics as a solution. We
051060 -             could use the PG&E experience.  Possibly Dan Ono would
051061 -             contribute on this.  They need someone of stature to be a
051062 -             primary speaker.
051063 -
051065 -              ..
051066 -             PMI President
051067 -
051068 -             Bob Denmark requested nominations from the floor for next
051069 -             year's officers.  I wanted to nominate Sherrill McDonald,
051070 -             based on our discussions that the chapter needs a leader
051071 -             with energy and charisma, ref SDS 12 line 125, Did not do
051072 -             this because it seems that if he had wanted the job, the
051073 -             nominating committee would have included him on the slate.
051074 -             Since they did not do so, I did not want to put him in an
051075 -             embarrassing position of having to decline the nomination.
051076 -             I suppose I could have framed a nomination as an accolade
051077 -             so he could have graciously declined, but I did not think
051078 -             of this in time.
051080 -          ..
051081 -      •  Rosanne Sykes per ref SDS 21 line 93.
051082 -             ..
051083 -             Bill introduced me to Rosanne.  We scheduled for me
051084 -             to call her in the morning about visiting with her later
051085 -             in the day to show SDS.
051087 -              ..
051088 -             PMI President
051089 -
051090 -             Bob Denmark announced last night that Rosanne has been
051091 -             nominated for President of PMI NCC, for the coming year.
051092 -
051093 -
051094 -      •  Chris Snyder per ref SDS 14 line 58, mention discussions with
051095 -         Microsoft on evaluation MS Project, ref SDS 22 line 55.
051096 -
051097 -             Don't think Chris showed up.
051099 -          ..
051100 -      •  John Barsky, City of San Franciso, per ref SDS 17 line 47.
051101 -
051102 -         What is John's view of how SDS would be applied to solve
051103 -         claims and support his management, per ref SDS 18 line 48.
051104 -             ..
051105 -             Did not see John this evening.
051106 -
051108 -          ..
051109 -      •  Bill DeHart said he expects to have a meeting with Terry
051110 -         Morford week after next when I am back in town, following up
051111 -         discussion at ref SDS 18 line 83.  He has talked to Terry
051112 -         about this and it seems to be in the works.
051114 -          ..
051115 -         Scheduled follow up for 950424.
051116 -
051118 -  ..
051120 -  ..
051121 - Project Manager's Forum       1730 - 1830
051122 -
051123 -   Impact of Changes on Projects
051124 -   C. William Ibbs, Ph D.
051125 -   Construction Engineering & Management Program
051126 -   University California, Berkeley
051127 -
051128 -       A question for this topic is why are so many changes needed, in
051129 -       light of the fact we have such improved methodologies to design
051130 -       faster and more carefully.  Is there a role for better
051131 -       communications in reducing the need for and impact of changes?
051133 -    ..
051134 -   Turned out this presentation was not made, because the speaker was
051135 -   sick or something.
051136 -
051137 -
051139 -  ..
051141 -  ..
051142 - Dinner Program              2000
051144 -    ..
051145 -   Project Magic Dates
051146 -   Joel M. Koppleman President Primavera Systems
051147 -
051148 -       Should ask about advantages of automating and integrating cost,
051149 -       schedule and communications.  I asked a form of this question
051150 -       below. ref SDS 0 3920
051152 -    ..
051153 -   Visited with Joel briefly before his presentation during the social
051154 -   hour.
051156 -    ..
051157 -   Joel remembered POIMS, which seemed to indicate he has read the
051158 -   material, submitted on 940525, ref SDS 8 8539, and discussed on
051159 -   941016. ref SDS 10 1011
051160 -
051161 -       Discussed Joel assigning someone to study the POIMS paper and
051162 -       report to him about opportunities to accomplish Primavera's
051163 -       market objectives.  Joel said he will do this.  But he has not
051164 -       followed up on anything else he has indicated an intent to do,
051165 -       so there is low likelihood he will remember this task.
051166 -
051167 -
051168 -
0512 -

SUBJECTS
Cost Schedule Communications - Enterprise
Proactive Management Discovers Problems
Metrics Discover and Fix Mistakes

0905 -
090601 -    ..
090602 -   Schedule Control Failed Using World's Greatest Scheduling Tool
090603 -
090604 -   Joel gave an insightful, entertaining presentation on difficulties
090605 -   Primavera had getting its Windows program created.  They were about
090606 -   8 months behind their original schedule despite the fact that they
090607 -   used Primavera to plan and "control" the work.  Joel expressed
090608 -   frustration about continual staff forecasts of completing the work
090609 -   in just "one more week," that were not realized.
090611 -    ..
090612 -   This is the source of the lecture title, "magic dates," explained by
090613 -   Joel below in assessing remedies. ref SDS 0 3920
090614 -
090615 -       [On 950705 disallusionment with "Project Managers," ref SDS 30
090616 -       2165, and on 950817 at PG&E, ref SDS 33 7447.]
090618 -    ..
090619 -   Features Fallacy Market Conditions Evolving Causes Scope Creep
090620 -   Scope Creep Causes 8 Month Delay Product Update Release
090621 -   Product Development Weaknesses Caused by Features Fallacy
090622 -
090623 -   Primavera had difficulty finding qualified people under an acceler-
090624 -   ated pace of development.  A major problem was "scope creep" from
090625 -   the evolving nature of the technology, and the consequent need to
090626 -   provide features demanded by the market, especially so that
090627 -   reviewers in major pub- lications would not pan the product because
090628 -   it lacked particular modalities however slight their contribution
090629 -   might be to using the program.  Joel said, as CEO and founder, he
090630 -   contributed to this problem because of his constant exposure to
090631 -   customers and hearing their needs/requests.  It is not clear in
090632 -   retrospect whether a better result could have been obtained by not
090633 -   heeding and keeping pace with market demands.
090634 -
090636 -    ..
090637 -   Solutions
090638 -
090639 -   Joel recommended better planning, especially writing detailed
090640 -   product requirements in advance of coding, as one way to get better
090641 -   estimates of time and cost.  He added though that requirements specs
090642 -   he has seen on more recent development efforts, seem excessive,
090643 -   indicating it is hard to discern the best level of effort on this
090644 -   task.  It does however support the course Morris suggests for SDS,
090645 -   ref SDS 13 line 37.  Joel indicated that Windows development tools
090646 -   are now much improved from what was available during most of the
090647 -   coding of their project.
090649 -        ..
090650 -       I called Morris this evening and mentioned scope creep problem
090651 -       at Primavera; which is similar to discussions on Chips
090652 -       downsizing, reported on 911221. ref SDS 3 6E5G  Morris is
090653 -       somewhat familiar with Primavera.  Chips may use it to schedule
090654 -       their projects.  Not sure.
090656 -        ..
090657 -       His parents are in town this evening, for the Easter period.  He
090658 -       could not talk long.
090659 -
090661 -    ..
090662 -   Cost/Benefit Discipline
090663 -
090664 -   Joel said Primavera has recently hired a product manager from Lotus
090665 -   Development who seems to be able to exercise greater control on
090666 -   scope creep which plagued their Primavera Windows development
090667 -   project.  He described a process of defining scope change packages
090668 -   according to time, cost and benefits.
090669 -
090670 -
0907 -

SUBJECTS
Reliable Accuracy Alphabet External Object Internal Thoughts Shape Cr
Truth Reliability Overcome Deception Complexity for Decision Support
Speak Truth to Power Courage Executives Don't Want to Listen

4005 -
400601 -        ..
400602 -       Management, Leadership, Knowledge
400603 -
400604 -       The problems Joel cites have occurred on projects since the time
400605 -       of the pyramids, including the challenge of new technology,
400606 -       e.g., the space shuttle, ref SDS 5 4499.  Aristotle and Thomas
400607 -       Aquinas were correct that disasters result from an accumulation
400608 -       of small misunderstandings, i.e., a "comedy of errors," along
400609 -       the way that are magnified by the press of time and the tension
400610 -       of hierarchy, ref SDS 9 5583.  These forces in combination with
400611 -       modern day gridlock from increased flows of information, obscure
400612 -       the true state of affairs.
400614 -        ..
400615 -       Reality is Harsh Metric
400616 -
400617 -       Managers who cannot convert information into knowledge at the
400618 -       time it is needed, discover with the fullness of time the harsh
400619 -       reality that knowledge is the only source of true power.
400620 -       Leadership disconnected from understanding is a rudderless ship
400621 -       that reaches its destination only after the most arduous
400622 -       journey.
400623 -
400624 -           [Managers abhor nit picking, ref SDS 27 8599, but wind up
400625 -           drifting in circles. ref SDS 27 9442
400627 -            ..
400628 -           [On 950603 history of rejecting CPM planning is an example
400629 -           showing ignorance, fear and denial of good management.
400630 -           ref SDS 28 5554
400632 -            ..
400633 -           [On 950603 example of culture drifting in circles, repeating
400634 -           mistakes, because lessons from history are not learned.
400635 -           ref SDS 28 0217
400637 -            ..
400638 -           [On 960301 Morris feels managers are unproductive overhead
400639 -           ref SDS 36 4692
400641 -            ..
400642 -           [On 960302 Drucker explains that managers make resources
400643 -           productive. ref SDS 36 PO6H
400645 -            ..
400646 -           [On 951208 using sound management practice consistently is
400647 -           the essence of the pyramid analogy. ref SDS 34 4772
400649 -            ..
400650 -           [On 950812 "reality is harsh metric" in NWO paper.
400651 -           ref SDS 32 4371 and ref SDS 32 AE46
400652 -
400654 -    ..
400655 -   Truth is a Moving Target on Information Highway
400656 -   Lessons Learned: Do we need a new tool; Missing Ingredient?
400657 -
400658 -   Asked Joel, as the CEO, Chairman and founder, if he can share
400659 -   lessons learned about how Primavera's management methods could be
400660 -   changed to get better results than he reported today, per above?
400661 -   ref SDS 0 2355  Could there have been a missing ingredient in the
400662 -   communication process that would have helped Primavera overcome
400663 -   difficulties cited this evening, since it appears that the world's
400664 -   greatest cost and schedule tools implemented by the best
400665 -   practitioners, were inadequate?
400667 -    ..
400668 -   Might it have helped Primavera to integrate cost, schedule and
400669 -   communication, since communication seems to have been the cause of
400670 -   project difficulties? per ref SDS 0 3910
400671 -
400672 -        [On 971004 Stanford closed its "Project Office" because the
400673 -        "best and brightest" could not succeed. ref SDS 43 0000]
400674 -
400675 -
400677 -    ..
400678 -   Truth Fails When Leadership is Too Busy to Listen
400679 -   People Fail Tell Truth When Leadership Fails to Listen
400680 -   Speak Truth to Power Courage of Prometheus Overcome Fear of Knowledge
400681 -
400682 -   Joel said the main problem he had as CEO of Primevera getting things
400683 -   done on time and within budget, per above, ref SDS 0 2355, was that
400684 -   managers and engineers did not tell the truth.
400686 -    ..
400687 -   Joel did not take time to explain the distinction between managers
400688 -   who do not tell the "truth," and executives who won't listen to the
400689 -   truth (on 890809 listening improves productivity, and is improved by
400690 -   going to seminars, ref SDS 2 CJ9J).  Joel did not distinguish
400691 -   telling the truth from managers who "protect" the boss by
400692 -   summarizing details in clear, concise communication that omits
400693 -   context, because the boss demands the "bottom line" and the "big
400694 -   picture" in 25 words or 30 seconds before catching a plane for an
400695 -   important event, which Joel cited in our meeting on 941016.
400696 -   ref SDS 11 9563  Managers protect executives at Dinwiddie from
400697 -   details per meeting on 940506. ref SDS 7 2945
400699 -    ..
400700 -   How does clear and concise communication differ from "telling the
400701 -   truth"?
400703 -    ..
400704 -   This record suggests a better partnership is needed between
400705 -   leadership and technology, discussed on 890809. ref SDS 2 SE5F
400706 -
400707 -             [On 950502 discussed PMI Asilomar conference on building
400708 -             better partnership between leadership and technology.
400709 -             ref SDS 25 5830
400711 -              ..
400712 -             [On 950428 seminar reported that technology has reduced
400713 -             productivity of leadership. ref SDS 24 3921
400715 -              ..
400716 -             [On 960103 Intel executives make decisions based on style
400717 -             because there is not enough time to understand content.
400718 -             ref SDS 35 8409
400720 -              ..
400721 -             [On 960301 Drucker calls "managing managrs" the hardest
400722 -             part of management. ref SDS 36 5760
400724 -              ..
400725 -             [On 960311 leaderhip has long been at war with technology;
400726 -             needs better partnership. ref SDS 38 G635
400728 -              ..
400729 -             [On 960627 Intel expects technology will cause information
400730 -             overload to get worse. ref SDS 41 2912]
400732 -              ..
400733 -             [On 980307 Andy Grove calls on managers not to be "wimps"
400734 -             ref SDS 44 1091, but also warns that executives are in
400735 -             denial about the cause of their problems being inadequate
400736 -             executive management. ref SDS 44 5517]
400738 -              ..
400739 -             [On 990625 article says CEOS fail to execute because of
400740 -             psyche. ref SDS 46 1024]
400742 -              ..
400743 -             [On 990924 explain cause and solution to high cost of
400744 -             mistakes is lack of alignment which causes meaning drift.
400745 -             and makes communication the biggest risk in enterprise.
400746 -             ref SDS 47 5576]
400748 -              ..
400749 -             [On 991001 NASA lost $125M space orbiter that crashed in
400750 -             Mars due to incomplete communication. ref SDS 48 0001]
400752 -              ..
400753 -             [On 991221 study shows doctors omit critical information
400754 -             in 90% of communications with patients. ref SDS 49 0001]
400756 -              ..
400757 -             [On 991227 example executive omits information in
400758 -             communication due to limited time. ref SDS 50 9844]
400760 -              ..
400761 -             [On 000720 feedback critical metric to discover truth and
400762 -             refine accuracy. ref SDS 51 2960
400763 -
400765 -            ..
400766 -           Truth Conflicts with Practices of Internal Management
400767 -           Fear of Accountability Breeds Fear of Telling the Truth
400768 -
400769 -           Joel's conclusions that the cause of management failure is
400770 -           due to people not telling the truth, ref SDS 0 4543, from
400771 -           Primavera's difficult project, ref SDS 0 2355, shows that
400772 -           fear of accountability, which is endemic to internal
400773 -           management, creates an aversion to understanding, commonly
400774 -           called "documentation" (see Cal Tech seminar on 921021, at
400775 -           ref SDS 5 4390), that undermines effective management,
400776 -           regardless of good standards and methods, per discussion
400777 -           with Morris, see ref SDS 2 0880.  Similar concern arose at
400778 -           DNRC. ref SDS 4 6546
400780 -            ..
400781 -           [See follow up for PMI event to find better solution, ref
400782 -           SDS 19 line 75.]
400784 -            ..
400785 -           [On 950803 reviewed Perini experience on Oro Lomo pumping
400786 -           plant as example of management similar to Primavera's. ref
400787 -           SDS 25 7878
400789 -            ..
400790 -           [See feeling that accountability is harrassment and results
400791 -           in accusing project managers of lying, ref SDS 30 2955 and
400792 -           at ref SDS 30 6684.]
400794 -            ..
400795 -           [Used "truth" in PMI Comm. article on Asilomar, ref SDS 39
400796 -           8888; developed ideas at ref SDS 40 2222.]
400798 -            ..
400799 -           [On 980405 fear of accountability inhibits use of
400800 -           Communication Metrics. ref SDS 45 5065]
400801 -
400803 -        ..
400804 -       This seems to fit the model of the leader racing ahead of the
400805 -       team, which Communication Metrics is aimed at resolving, per
400806 -       ref SDS 12 2108.
400807 -
400809 -        ..
400810 -       Joel is a fast study.  He talked about the importance of
400811 -       details, but gives the impression of being impatient with the
400812 -       process of acquiring and imparting understanding.  I asked about
400813 -       the effect of hierarchy on the management process at Primavera.
400814 -       Could anything have been done proactively to dig out of the
400815 -       "system" what was truly occurring.  Joel did not answer this
400816 -       directly.  He did, in answer to another questioner, acknowledge
400817 -       that his decision making was not always sound.
400818 -
400819 -           [See explanation of executive mindset that prefers Crisis
400820 -           Management, ref SDS 42 1897.]
400822 -        ..
400823 -       The main point from Primavera's experience is that something
400824 -       else is needed to improve productivity, besides good schedule
400825 -       and budget software.  I believe it is:
400826 -
400827 -                        Communication Metrics
400828 -
400829 -           ...for reasons at ref SDS 15 8492, ref SDS 26 5555.
400830 -
400831 -
400832 -
4009 -

SUBJECTS
PMI Monthly meetings
Developing Leads, PMI

4204 -
420501 -  ..
420502 - Follow Up
420503 -
420504 - After the presentation this evening I invited Joel to come by in the
420505 - morning to see how SDS improves communications.  He has a meeting at
420506 - 0800, so I suggested we do it at 0600; he would have to get up at
420507 - 0500.  He asked for my card, and said he will try to call me during
420508 - the day, to see if we can do it after his 0800 meeting.
420509 -
420510 -
420512 -  ..
4206 -
4207 -
4208 - New Contacts
4209 -   ..
420901 - Catherine L. Tonne Integrated Project Systems 1070 Sixth Avenue,
420902 - Suite 110 Belmont, CA  94002 415 802 1020 fax 673 1724
420903 -
420904 -
420905 -         2525 Seventh Street
420906 -         Livermore, CA  94550
420907 -         510 449 3832 fax 3541
420908 -
420910 -     ..
420911 -    Catherine works a good deal from her home, as do members of her
420912 -    firm.  She described this as a "virtual" company.  She does a lot
420913 -    of traveling.  Currently they are providing project management
420914 -    training for Dell Corporation in Austin TX.  They do not use a lot
420915 -    of tools.  This is similar to Project Mentors.
420916 -    ..
420917 -    I explained the Communication Metrics ideas.  My feeling is
420918 -    that this could help IPS' customers implement project management
420919 -    more effectively for the reasons at ref SDS 6 line 217, and for the
420920 -    same reasons it would have helped Primavera as explained by Joel
420921 -    this evening.
420922 -    ..
420923 -    Catherine asked me to call her tomorrow morning.
420924 -
420925 -
420927 -  ..
420928 - Mary L. Schramke, Ph.D.
420929 - Marketing Specialist
420930 - Genetic Systems Division
420931 - Bio-Rad Laboratories
420932 - Life Science Group
420933 - 2000 Alfred Nobel Drive
420934 - Hercules, CA  94547
420935 - 510 741 6717 fax 1051
420936 -
420937 -    Mary is a guest this evening, considering becoming a member.
420938 -    ..
420939 -    I explained the ideas of communication metrics, and she
420940 -    requested information.
420941 -
420942 - ..
420943 - Carl G. Rahal Management Consultant Lionsgate Associates P.O.
420944 - Box 1283 Los Gatos, CA  95031
420946 -  ..
420947 - 408 353 2543 fax 3273
420948 -
420949 -    Carl said he is managing a project at NASA in Sunnyvale.  I briefly
420950 -    explained the ideas of communication metrics.  He asked me to call
420951 -    him or send information.
420952 -
420953 -
420954 -
420956 -  ..
420957 - Isaac Ponte
420958 - President
420959 - IBI
420960 - 231 Marketplace #117
420961 - San Ramon, CA  94583
420962 - 510 906 9466
420963 -    ..
420964 -    Isaac is formerly a controls manager for Davy Construction.
420965 -    We discussed briefly with Shirin Oshidari who was demonstrating
420966 -    Primavera, ideas about using resource leveling.  I asked about the
420967 -    true value to improving earnings of the investment in these types
420968 -    of analysis.  Isaac seems a strong advocate.
420970 -     ..
420971 -    He described a procedure where he had a colleague take notes at
420972 -    progress meetings, and seemed to indicate they were organized
420973 -    according to project controls, i.e., budget and schedule accounts.
420974 -    This is going in the direction of SDS and communication metrics. I
420975 -    explained this in summary.  Isaac asked me to contact him.
420977 -     ..
420978 -    I think as a consultant, he could be an Ambassador of Change using
420979 -    SDS, as part of his business motto:
420980 -
420981 -                         Helping you to succeed...
420982 -
420983 - ..
420984 - Shirin Oshidari Kelar Corporation 901 Market Street Suite 390
420985 - San Francisco, CA  94103 415 399 1200
420986 -
420987 -    Shirin remembered working with me on the DNRC project.  She said
420988 -    resource leveling in Primavera is used by Caltrans to support
420989 -    requests for changing staffing.
420990 -
420991 -    Bill asked how Primavera solves the problem of maintaining unique
420992 -    activity scope identification.  Shirin showed us the example on the
420993 -    screen that seemed to solve this point.  Bill asked about adding
420994 -    notes to describe activity scope.  Shirin showed this and it seemed
420995 -    more awkward than MS Project.
420997 -     ..
420998 -    I tried to scroll the schedule up and down, and it would not budge.
420999 -    Shirin said this is because they have several schedule files in
421000 -    memory and this slows down processing.  Seemed like she was able
421001 -    to get things to run a little faster after closing some files.
421003 -     ..
421004 -    Shirin asked me to call her tomorrow about seeing SDS.
421005 -
421006 -
421007 -
421008 -
421009 -
421010 -
421011 -
421012 -
421013 -
421014 -
421015 -
421016 -
421017 -
4211 -