THE WELCH COMPANY
440 Davis Court #1602
San Francisco, CA 94111-2496
415 781 5700
rodwelch@pacbell.net
S U M M A R Y
DIARY: May 10, 1994 08:02 AM Tuesday;
Rod Welch
Review articles in HBR on POIMS and SDS concepts.
1...Summary/Objective
.....TQM Implications
2...Lawyers Implement Ethics?
3...Disillusionment with High Tech - Lotus Notes
4...Training Critical to Effective Use of Information Technology
.....Email Causes Information Overload with Network Communication Model
5...Email Networking Objectives Paperless Office Elusive
6...Virtual Corporation Paperless Office Goal of Email Networking
.........More Information Reduces Productivity
7...Concensus Difficult, Meaning of Information Depends on Experience
8...Meaning of Information Depends on Experience, Concensus Difficult
9...Subject Identification Difficult SDS Organizes the Record Using WBS
10...People know they cannot use computers for management, but they don't
......Subject Management is Hard - Needs Organic Structure
......................particularism and globalism
......Librarians, Information Maps & Guides
11...Human Centered Design Makes Computers Work for People
......Information Architecture Failed
12...User Wants - Empathic Design, Usefulness
13...People Do Not Share Information Easily
14...Share Information is Not Easily Accomplished
15...Cultural Change through Education
......Education on Benefits of Common Information Groupware
......Communication 2/3 of Management Time
......Management is Talking 66% of the Time
...........Managers "Big Pictures"
..............
Click here to comment!
CONTACTS
SUBJECTS
Correlation to accepted practice and
Executive Training, 930726
Ethics, Leadership & Change, TQM
0705 -
0705 - ..
0706 - Summary/Objective
0707 -
070701 - Follow up ref SDS 20 0000, and ref SDS 21 0000.
070702 -
070703 - Reviewed ref OF 13 line 15, on ethics. The author explains an
070704 - "integrity based approach to ethics management," that... instills
070705 - guiding values, aspirations, and patterns of thought and conduct."
070706 - ref OF 13 line 49 The author argues this keeps organizations within
070707 - the law and also taps "... into powerful human impulses for moral
070708 - thought and action. Then an ethical framework becomes no longer a
070709 - burdensome con- straint within which companies must operate, but the
070710 - governing ethos of an organization."
070712 - ..
070713 - This is a leadership issue, and so I assigned that subject.
070714 -
070715 - I am worried about management providing guidance for "patterns of
070716 - thought." This reeks of "re-education" camps, "politically cor-
070717 - rect" thinking, see for example ref OF 13 line 669. The author
070718 - intimates that women approach management as a job of "motherhood"
070719 - to teach children (employees) fundamental right and wrong, ref OF
070720 - 13 line 660. The idea that teamwork is more important than com-
070721 - petition, is expressed at ref OF 13 line 685.
070722 - ..
070723 - I wonder if something can be "unfair" and yet "ethical."
070724 -
070726 - ..
070727 - The author's recommendation to "integrate ethics management strate-
070728 - gies" into day to day operations, is one more set of things for manag-
070729 - ers to work at besides production, as discussed in the article on NWO,
070730 - ref OF 1 line 50.
070731 -
070732 - This came up tonight in a discussion with Ross, and illustrates
070733 - the amount of time that can be consumed by the exercise of deter-
070734 - mining ethics, if more is done than a mere emotional flinch, see,
070735 - ref SDS 22 line 125.
070737 - ..
070738 - Discussions with other IBM units, shows that the interplay betwe-
070739 - en time and information is critical to performance, per ref SDS 16
070740 - line 70. As the environment becomes more "hectic" the value of
070741 - having a path back to original understandings, goes up. This will
070742 - be true for questions of ethics, as well as all other "know-
070743 - ledge" work. Merely having good intentions is not good enough.
070744 -
070745 -
070746 - ..
070747 - The author relates "ethics" to quality performance, which is a
070748 - TQM area<HT6N area, and shared vision, which is the New Age Business
070749 - matter, review- ed in another article at ref SDS 21 line 111, where
070750 - employees are uncomfortable with assignments, relative to personal
070751 - goals and "feel- ings," ref OF 13 line 602. She says this is an
070752 - ethics issue, because in an organization that sells care for elderly
070753 - people, emphasis on earnings, impacts the quality of care, ref OF 13
070754 - line 582. The employ- ees, who are doctors and nurses, objected to
070755 - management's concern about earnings v. level of care.
070757 - ..
070758 - TQM Implications
070759 -
070760 - It seems to me she is mixing ethics which sounds generally like a
070761 - matter of right/wrong conduct, with need to provide good service
070762 - in order to accomplish the mission of the organization, ref OF 13
070763 - line 611. This goes to the idea that at some level TQM becomes
070764 - merely just doing the work correctly, and includes everything. An
070765 - employee can be upset because the design of a part was inadequate-
070766 - ly researched or prepared, and this is "unethical" because the
070767 - customer will be ill-served.
070768 -
070769 - "Customer first" TQM ideas are further discussed in the article at
070770 - ref OF 13 line 673.
070771 - ..
070772 - Therefore, I went ahead and assigned this article to TQM, as
070773 - well as ethics.
070774 -
070776 - ..
070777 - Lawyers Implement Ethics?
070778 -
070779 - The author sets out a table on implementing her idea, and says it
070780 - should be done with a staff of lawyers, ref OF 13 line 445. This is a
070781 - great employment opportunity for lawyers, but I wonder who is going
070782 - to supervise them? In any case, I don't think you sub-contract ethics
070783 - like you can scheduling, plumbing or litigation.
070784 -
070785 -
070786 -
0708 -
SUBJECTS
Information Management (IT)
Knowledge & Ideas, Automation, Implementing
Disillusionment with Technology
1305 -
130601 - ..
130602 - An article in the Harvard Busines Review (HBR) by Tom Davenport offers
130603 - important perspective on using technology to improve management.
130604 - ref OF 18 0001 Tom is a partner and director of research at Ernst &
130605 - Young's Center for Information Technology and Strategy in Boston, and
130606 - an adjunct professor at Boston University's School of Management.
130607 -
130609 - ..
130610 - [Followed this up at ref SDS 26 line 42.]
130612 - ..
130613 - Disillusionment with High Tech - Lotus Notes
130614 - Training Critical to Effective Use of Information Technology
130615 -
130616 - Davenport says companies, who invest in exotic hardware, often fail to
130617 - train people to use it productively, ref OF 18 B57K, and explains
130618 - training is a major cost of using Lotus Notes. ref OF 18 BW6Y This
130619 - causes dissatisfaction by end Users and disillusionment by users and
130620 - management in new technology, which reflects the negative review on
130621 - Lotus Notes at ref SDS 9 line 61.
130623 - ..
130624 - Experience with SDS over the past 10 years further shows that even
130625 - where employees are adequately trained, the software must accomplish a
130626 - "critical mass" of tasks faster, better and cheaper than relying on
130627 - personal recall, as set out in the PMI paper, ref OF 3 line 133. This
130628 - does not exist, except for SDS.
130629 -
130630 - [See later review of Tom Landauer's book on the "The Trouble
130631 - with Computers," noting computers are used for frivolous
130632 - tasks, ref SDS 28 line 242.]
130634 - ..
130635 - [On 011102 reviewing origins of Knowledege Management yielded
130636 - article Davenport published in 1998 on the 7 deadly sins of
130637 - Knowledge Management. ref SDS 41 H96M
130639 - ..
130640 - Check list of IT failures and advantages of SDS is at ref OF 18
130641 - line 222.
130642 -
130643 -
130644 -
1307 -
SUBJECTS
Email Degrades Writing, Understanding
Information Gridlock Compounded by
Noise, Too Noisy Cannot Understand Content,
Email Degrades Writing, Organization,
Organization, Structure for Information,
Information Highway Pandora's Box, Risk of
Noise, False Knowledge
2709 -
271001 - ..
271002 - Email Causes Information Overload with Network Communication Model
271003 -
271004 - HBR article says people suffer from too much information using
271005 - email for network communications. ref OF 18 GXST There is not
271006 - enough time to think and exercise care crafting accurate,
271007 - comprehensive correspondence, which causes continual mistakes,
271008 - noted in POIMS. ref OF 3 CZ6K
271009 -
271010 - [On 941117 PG&E example of email information overload with
271011 - risks of failure when people fail to make careful review.
271012 - ref SDS 27 7391
271014 - ..
271015 - [On 951214 MIT example information overload, "she reads her
271016 - email" unusual because most people don't have time. ref SDS 31
271017 - I741
271019 - ..
271020 - [On 960205 people waste 70% of the day in unproductive
271021 - meetings because nobody has time to review the record to
271022 - prepare for productive communications. ref SDS 32 5902
271024 - ..
271025 - [On 950927 information overload email least effective business
271026 - sytem at Intel. ref SDS 30 E93K and ref SDS 30 5849
271028 - ..
271029 - Merill Malvini at Digital Equipment made a similar point on
271030 - 940128. ref SDS 15 I06V
271031 -
271033 - ..
271034 - Email Networking Objectives Paperless Office Elusive
271035 - Virtual Corporation Paperless Office Goal of Email Networking
271036 -
271037 - Paperless office using networking for email does not yield
271038 - productivity benefits for virtual management model. ref OF 18 D537
271040 - ..
271041 - Reengineering for a "virtual corporation" reduces collaboration,
271042 - reported in an HBR article on the "Lean Enterprise" reviewed
271043 - yesterday, on 940509. ref SDS 21 8498
271045 - ..
271046 - Similar notion of using a computer for a "virtual assistant"
271047 - is presented at ref SDS 13 line 256.
271048 -
271050 - ..
271051 - More Information Reduces Productivity
271052 -
271053 - This idea of converting information into knowledge was
271054 - developed at ref SDS 10 line 181. The need to provide better
271055 - ways to do this is supported by Tom Davenport's article; an
271056 - example is the discussions with IBM at ref SDS 16 line 68.
271057 -
271058 - [Later an article in Wired indicates "reengineering" that
271059 - adds more information schemes do not improve productivity,
271060 - ref SDS 29 line 186.]
271061 -
271062 -
271063 -
271064 -
2711 -
SUBJECTS
Organic Subject Structure
MBO, Automated, Computers Can't Help Managers
Subject Index Spreadsheet for Knowledge
Organize Complexity of Life/Management, SDS
Organization, Structure for Information,
Meaning, Maintain Shared/Common
Meaning Drift Avoided by Metric of
Librarian Organizes Record and Retrieves
Meaning Data Information from Connecting Stories into Chronolgies Cau
Collaboration Complementary Action Based on Shared Meaning Adding Int
5412 -
541301 - ..
541302 - Concensus Difficult, Meaning of Information Depends on Experience
541303 - Meaning of Information Depends on Experience, Concensus Difficult
541304 - Subject Identification Difficult SDS Organizes the Record Using WBS
541305 -
541306 - Author recognizes information has multiple meanings that depend on
541307 - context in relation to personal experience. ref OF 18 QM7N Examples
541308 - illustrate how the same information has different meanings to
541309 - different people. ref OF 18 DS4O
541311 - ..
541312 - Difficulty performing subject indexing was reported in an article
541313 - published by Byte magazine, reviewed on 910418, ref SDS 7 5584, and
541314 - was considered in explaining the SDS design on 890523. ref SDS 1 3F8H
541315 - An example of assigning subjects to a picture was developed at that
541316 - time on 890523. ref SDS 1 G14K
541317 -
541318 - [On 031215 subject indexing difficult because information has
541319 - multiple meanings depending on context, excellent explanation
541320 - in Freeman's PhD thesis paper at Yale presenting Lifestreams to
541321 - Professor Gelertner. ref SDS 43 K37H
541323 - ..
541324 - Concensus is difficult and sometimes impossible to establish on the
541325 - meaning of information because everyone interprets information
541326 - according to unique experience. ref OF 18 0319
541328 - ..
541329 - Reaching shared understanding occurs through a long and often arduous
541330 - process. ref OF 18 B66H
541332 - ..
541333 - Software engineers make the mistake of believing that information can
541334 - be organized according to a few common terms. ref OF 18 QL3H
541335 -
541336 - [On 010411 desire that everyone edit SDS records to reach
541337 - concensus interpretation of events presents false expectations of
541338 - collaboration. ref SDS 40 NV5I
541340 - ..
541341 - SDS organic structure supports multiple meanings, explained on 890523,
541342 - ref SDS 1 P13O, and again on 910221 to organize human memory based on
541343 - context. ref SDS 6 RR5I SDS triangulates meaning to refine accuracy
541344 - of understanding that aids the human intelligence process to improve
541345 - conventional IT systems, per POIMS. ref OF 3 1110
541347 - ..
541348 - Since "intelligence" is a hidden process, while information requires
541349 - overt action to obtain, people have difficulty grasping the added
541350 - value of SDS support for context management that saves lives, time,
541351 - and money by being prepared to find critical details in time to be
541352 - effective. ref OF 3 MQ6J
541353 -
541355 - ..
541356 - People know they cannot use computers for management, but they don't
541357 - know why, except the vague notion that computers are not flexible
541358 - enough to reflect the dynamics of daily work.
541359 -
541360 - This is reflected in the general proposition that people prefer to get
541361 - information from people rather than the computer because people can
541362 - provide context that is not available in computers. ref OF 18 B86Q
541364 - ..
541365 - People do not know that organic structure, record segmentation,
541366 - alignment and summary are essential to emulate human recall, because
541367 - they have no experience with it.
541369 - ..
541370 - Limits of keyword retrieval from 891117 on Santa Clara Jail project.
541371 - ref SDS 4 5762.
541372 -
541374 - ..
541375 - Subject Management is Hard - Needs Organic Structure
541376 -
541377 - The author fails to mention the role of structure in assigning
541378 - meaning to information, which is called in SDS an "organic
541379 - subject structure," explained on 890523. ref SDS 1 P13O
541380 -
541381 - This is treated in the Byte Magazine article on "subject
541382 - indexing" reviewed on 910418. ref SDS 7 5584. The need for
541383 - experienced executives to contribute to the subject index is
541384 - explained at ref OF 18 line 331, also cited in the Byte article
541385 - at ref OF 1 line 184.
541387 - ..
541388 - The author's recognition that information has different meanings
541389 - to different people, ref OF 18 line 264, which he calls the
541390 - tension between:
541391 -
541392 - particularism and globalism
541393 -
541394 - ...is only half the truth. Information also has different
541395 - meanings to the same person at different times in different
541396 - contexts, as explained on 890523. ref SDS 1 SQ5L
541397 -
541398 - [On 960518 "meaning drift" explained in Landauer's paper,
541399 - ref SDS 36 3734
541401 - ..
541402 - [On 031215 subject indexing difficult because information has
541403 - multiple meanings based on context, excellent explanation
541404 - with examples in Freeman's 1997 PhD thesis paper at Yale
541405 - presenting Lifestreams to Professor Gelertner. ref SDS 43
541406 - K37H
541408 - ..
541409 - We identify information based on the path of subjects that led to
541410 - consideration of the information in the "near term" time frame.
541411 - Thus "time" or more precisely "circumstance," is critical to
541412 - meaning. The challenge is identifying these paths, where they
541413 - branch and why; and providing ways to traverse these alternate
541414 - paths when necessary to retrieve information quickly.
541416 - ..
541417 - Author also fails to recognize that managers will only use
541418 - information systems when the "systems" contain their own know-
541419 - ledge and ideas, as they understand it. The author discusses the
541420 - problem of multiple-meanings from the context of getting "infor-
541421 - mation providers" to enter identification, when it should be,
541422 - must be, can only be, the manager who is the information provider
541423 - for himself, because only he knows what is important for himself.
541424 -
541426 - ..
541427 - Librarians, Information Maps & Guides
541428 -
541429 - Author says IBM and Hallmark are using information maps as a
541430 - printed publication that "points" to information, and who has it,
541431 - ref OF 18 line 605.
541432 -
541433 - Information Guides are explained at ref OF 18 line 643, as
541434 - company "librarians" that direct people to areas of information.
541435 -
541436 - [On 950603 Stanford has a "mediator" software program under
541437 - development that is hoped can provide a "librarian" role.
541438 - ref SDS 23 8J6J
541440 - ..
541441 - [On 960626 another article proposes "librarian" as a
541442 - knowledge navigator. ref SDS 37 0001
541444 - ..
541445 - [On 020129 Doug Engelbart reported attending a professional
541446 - conference on the philosophy of augmenting intelligence where
541447 - librarians were a big percentage of the attendance.
541448 - ref SDS 42 0001
541450 - ..
541451 - The POIMS idea of an "organic subject structure," ref OF 3 line
541452 - 42, has not occurred in the general market or literature yet.
541454 - ..
541455 - Nor does it seems to have occurred to anyone to use organiza-
541456 - tional objectives as the subjects for information.
541457 -
541458 -
541459 -
541460 -
5415 -
SUBJECTS
Organic Subject Structure, Usability Engineering
SDS Design is Unique
Data Information Inadequate Need Knowledge,
Artificial Intelligence, Automation Trends, AI
Disallusioned by Technology Failed Promise
Human Centered Design
6208 -
620901 - ..
620902 - Human Centered Design Makes Computers Work for People
620903 -
620904 - It appears the author uses the term "human centered" IT to refer to
620905 - systems like SDS that capture information, and then add organization
620906 - and connections that provide context of alignment with history, i.e.,
620907 - experience, objectives, requirements and commitments that are
620908 - important to people, i.e., "knowledge," rather than traditional
620909 - control "data" and information sought by management to measure
620910 - work/cost status, which was the first use of computers. per ref OF 18
620911 - 1563
620913 - ..
620914 - Conventional IT is valuable for storing and retrieving information,
620915 - like a more efficient filing cabinet. SDS uses an intelligence
620916 - process that converts information into a more valuable cognitive
620917 - resource, commonly called knowledge. Storage is just part of what
620918 - SDS is about.
620920 - ..
620921 - This is part of "Empathic Design" reviewed on 940508. ref SDS 20 6930
620922 -
620923 - [On 950710 Landauer posits User Centered Design, similar to "
620924 - "empathic design reviewed on 940510, for studying how people
620925 - work and designing tools that optimize productivity,
620926 - ref SDS 28 6403, called out by Intel in the Byte article
620927 - today, per above. ref SDS 7 UT7F
620929 - ..
620930 - [On 960510 SDS design converts information into knowledge,
620931 - wisdom, vision at ref SDS 35 5672.]
620933 - ..
620934 - [On 990527 Disruptive Technology uses Empathic design that
620935 - leaps usefulness beyond existing methods. ref SDS 38 3034]
620936 -
620938 - ..
620939 - Information Architecture Failed
620940 -
620941 - This is a 1950's term referring to design of data base forms, per
620942 - ref OF 18 1563, using the analogy of an architect designing a
620943 - house with specific rooms where things occur.
620944 -
620945 - The aim is to reduce redundancy and permit sharing information,
620946 - but this has not worked well in practice. ref OF 18 0528
620947 -
620948 - SDS permits reducing duplication but does not inhibit
620949 - different people from creating information in their own way.
620950 - It does want people to come together to discuss common
620951 - subjects, i.e. the organizational objectives.
620953 - ..
620954 - IA systems failed because they do not recognize how people use
620955 - information. ref OF 18 6007
620957 - ..
620958 - Table comparing IA with "Human Centered" design is at ref OF 18
620959 - 9384
620960 -
620962 - ..
620963 - User Wants - Empathic Design, Usefulness
620964 -
620965 - Author contends that "... grand IT schemes that don't match what users
620966 - really need simply won't work." ref OF 18 9960. This reflects the idea
620967 - of "Empathic Design" in ref OF 6 9630, to develop a product users
620968 - need, even before users realize the need, from review on 940508.
620969 - ref SDS 20 6930
620970 -
620971 - [This is supported by a book published the following year by Tom
620972 - Landauer "The Trouble with Computers" who advocates "User
620973 - Centered Design" of computer applications. ref SDS 28 6403]
620974 -
620975 -
620976 -
620977 -
620978 -
6210 -
SUBJECTS
Collaborate Difficult Information Strategic Asset People Don't Want
Technology Has Not Improved Management Productivity People Hesitant
7204 -
720501 - ..
720502 - People Do Not Share Information Easily
720503 - Share Information is Not Easily Accomplished
720504 -
720505 - Davenport explains people do not share important information easily,
720506 - because it is seen as both a strategic asset to gain competitive
720507 - advantage, or a threat to security and privacy, including avoiding
720508 - embarrasment. ref OF 18 FR4J and ref OF 18 A54I
720509 -
720510 - [On 011102 reviewing origins of Knowledege Management yielded
720511 - article Davenport published in 1998 on the 7 deadly sins of
720512 - Knowledge Management. ref SDS 41 H96M
720514 - ..
720515 - Analysis on 940105 explains inherent tension between binary forces of
720516 - competition and cooperation. ref SDS 11 T56I
720518 - ..
720519 - An example is given of scientists reluctance to share preliminary
720520 - findings that might aid someone else. ref OF 18 PQPR
720522 - ..
720523 - SDS provides a range of features for making information private,
720524 - reported on 940423. ref SDS 19 0001
720525 -
720526 - [On 000509 example open source project to improve collaboration
720527 - on solving world problems is delayed because people don't want to
720528 - share information. ref SDS 39 LB4N
720530 - ..
720531 - [On 060523 doctor resists submitting patient history on
720532 - examinations to the patient. ref SDS 44 MC6M
720534 - ..
720535 - [On 060713 study showing resistance to sharing information that
720536 - reduces collaboration and cooperation. ref SDS 45 OQ6O
720537 -
720538 -
720539 -
720540 -
720541 -
720542 -
7206 -
SUBJECTS
Fear Unable to Write, Like to Talk
Cultural Resistance to New Methods
Strategies, Educate Benefits of Empathic, User Centered
Educate Through Studies Benefits User
Trial Installations
Pictures Converted into Knowledge by SDS
Communication 67% Management Time Meetings Calls Documents Not Enoug
8509 -
851001 - ..
851002 - Cultural Change through Education
851003 -
851004 - Author says IT implementation requires a "program for cultural change"
851005 - to educate users about advantages of sharing information, ref OF 18
851006 - line 91.
851007 -
851008 - My own sense is that users have to see tangible rewards from sharing,
851009 - and they have to be educated about the benefits of investing their own
851010 - knowledge and ideas, rather than going to the next meeting or going
851011 - home to watch television, attend the PTA meeting, etc.
851012 -
851014 - ..
851015 - Education on Benefits of Common Information Groupware
851016 -
851017 - The author notes that Groupware, like Lotus Notes, requires
851018 - training, ref OF 18 J55H, but also education about how technology
851019 - can improve management productivity and income. Education must
851020 - clearly show how computers can be applied in a way that leverages
851021 - a manager's analytical skills and personal experience.
851022 -
851024 - ..
851025 - Communication 2/3 of Management Time
851026 - Management is Talking 66% of the Time
851027 -
851028 - Managers get 2/3 of their information from conversation and 1/3
851029 - from printed documents, ref OF 18 6007, reflecting discussion
851030 - with Morris on 890809. ref SDS 3 8812
851032 - ..
851033 - Managers spend most of the time talking and listening because
851034 - because computers don't have information people need on
851035 - correlations of cause and effect based on context of objectives,
851036 - requirements and commitments. There is not an efficient way to
851037 - get information into a computer nor to access it, even if it were
851038 - in stored in a computer, as discussed with Morris on 890809.
851039 - ref SDS 3 6993.
851041 - ..
851042 - The authors point out that people like getting information
851043 - through conversation and correspondence because people can
851044 - provide context that is missing from computers. ref OF 18 B86Q
851045 -
851046 - [On 960205 managers waste 70% thier time in unproductive
851047 - meetings, because people are not prepared without ready
851048 - access to the record of relevant communications, as provided
851049 - by SDS. ref SDS 32 5902
851051 - ..
851052 - [On 960227 Morris confirmed that managers do not use
851053 - computers for management. ref SDS 33 2004
851055 - ..
851056 - [On 940603 article reports managers do not rely on computers,
851057 - because computers do not have information managers need nor
851058 - is there a way to get it, even if stored in a computer.
851059 - ref SDS 24 7500
851061 - ..
851062 - SDS makes technology useful to managers by capturing
851063 - organ<0846 organizational memory and adding intelligence that
851064 - converts information into knowledge of cause and effect based on
851065 - the context of history, objectives, requirements and commitments
851066 - of capturing managers' knowledge and ideas.
851068 - ..
851069 - Managers "Big Pictures"
851070 -
851071 - This supplements analysis of desire for more pictures.
851072 - Basically, managers rely on their eyes and ears, i.e., their
851073 - senses. They need SDS to capture, organize and link these
851074 - raw materials for more consistent application of their
851075 - knowledge, ref SDS 25 4933.
851077 - ..
851078 - [See later support in AP article, ref SDS 32 5222, and also in
851079 - PMnetwork article, ref SDS 34 6677.]
851080 -
851081 -
851082 -
851083 -
851084 -
8511 -